Layale Chaker's Composed Spontaneity

Johnny Gandelsman's Label Spotlights Silk Road's Lebanese Fiddler

May 24, 2024

Layale Chaker with Sarafand, Radio Afloat. In a Circle Records, 2024.

When I listened to Chaker’s new record, I heard so much folk influence and improvisation I was surprised to hear her explain how fully she scored out all her instrumental parts. She captures the energy of real-time interaction between musicians because her composition method embraces so much flux. Turns out, she trained with Eastern Europeans from Romania, Belarus, and Ukraine befored formal conservatory study in Paris and London, combining Bach and Mozart with Arabic improvisation. She now works with Rhiannon Giddins in Silk Road, Yo Yo Ma’s famous ensemble, and focuses on how musical identities get tied to the land… I started by asking her about how much Radio Afloat aspired to a folk sensibility…

Transcript:

I would say about 80 percent written. So actually it sounds as if it's improvised, but it's actually very written as well. So that's another layer. Um, yes. And it's because, yeah, no, the spontaneity is very, very, it's very real on that record.

Yes. It's, there's a lot of room for spontaneity embedded within the compositional form, which is something we've been exploring a lot. Writing for that, um, for that group because it's music that is written for people who play together a lot play off of each other a lot improvise together a lot. Um, I really wanted to embed in the form.

Some improvisational moments and some area of individual expression. Um, I actually, it's funny because when I started writing this, uh, this, um, this piece, um, for a radio of thought, I really thought of it as I want to, I want to write as little as possible and actually did the complete opposite. I. I, it became written out, which was not my original intent.

I had intended originally to write something that breathes a lot. Um, but, um, but I think there's a lot of room for, for breath, even in the written form that it is in. Um, and there's a lot of room for interpretation at least. So, um, it's a hybrid format of lead sheet and a score in a way. Interesting. Very interesting.

TR: All right. So give me some background context on how you came to these two recording projects and how you would describe the background and style of each of these different recordings.

LC: Um, so they, I started, I started, um, working with, uh, Ethel, um, at around the end of 2019. I had a piece already started to form in my mind.

And, uh, we started. Uh, rehearsing and working on it. And then they started throwing the idea of completing the program by another, uh, other pieces that they, that each of them would write for that group. Um, that strange group with all of a sudden three violins instead of two. Um, so, so we started working on it.

And then of course the pandemic hit, everything stopped. Um, it, it just stopped us in our tracks for a couple of years. Um, And in the meantime, I was also starting to work on my new album for, for my, my own ensemble for Sarafand. Um, and, uh, I had a residency at the, at, uh, NPR for a year, at WQXR, sorry, for a year.

Um, so I, I took it as the, you know, the perfect place to kind of try out things, um, just use it as a space for experimentation. Um, and I felt that whether it was, 2019 or it was 2021 or 2022, which was the time I was writing for radio, uh, radio offload. I really felt that I was basically preoccupied, still preoccupied, still moved by the same things, by the same ideas, um, that the pandemic has heightened these ideas, those feelings.

Chaker favorites:
Fairuz, Andalousiyat
Wayne Shorter, Weather Report Recordings…
Monteverdi, Les Arts Florissants, William Christie, Selva Morale E Spirituale
Vicente Atria, Orlando Furioso
Dawn of Midi, Dysnomia

And so I really, uh, feel like there are kind of the the same the perspective about the world formulated differently with different groups, which goes to say that we all I mean, because they're two drastically different groups of people, um, Ethel and Sarah fun, but it goes to say that we we really have a lot of commonality in how we address the world and how we address our perspective about the world.

Um, in vigil. I had, uh, I had been inspired by a poem by Orson Shire, principally, um, who speaks about holding a globe on her lap and asking the globe, where does it hurt? And the globe says everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. And, uh, for radio offload, I had been also inspired by another poem, long poem, uh, by a Lebanese poet, uh, who was, uh, passed away recently.

Uh, he speaks about, um, he speaks about the inerrant nature of human that, that they have. To hurt each other. And, uh, I that's what's really I based the radio offload on. I really based it off of this idea that are our destinies are so intertwined with the lands that we live on that to hurt each other.

The ways that the most efficient ways we found to hurt each other is to actually hurt the land. And that in terms makes us suffer as humans, makes each other suffer. That's how we make each other suffer. Um, so it's really, it was really just a long reflection on this idea and it just goes to say how, how, how little is evolving in our world that you can sustain such a reflection for four or five years and that it's, cross pollinates across everything that you do. It's writing for a string quartet or it's writing for a jazz ensemble or writing an opera, which is also something I, I, I've, I've, I've completed this year. Um, so yeah, it's, it's really just different modes of reflection, uh, on a, on the same core idea on the same.

TR: Interesting. Yeah. And I've been thinking a lot about this, um, a very similar theme about how Technology tricks us into thinking about how advanced and progressive and enlightened we are. And we're actually still stuck in a lot of the same, same we've way we've, and we're,

LC: we've come up with new ways of hurting each other.

I went to the Royal Academy of Music in London, but all around that, I still had always teachers and mentors of improvisational music, whether Ottoman court music or Hindustani music or Arabic, uh, music. So I always had a foot in both worlds…

TR: Talk to me about this radio residency with Radio Afloat and QXR, I didn't know anything about that. What was the residency like? Who gave it to you and how did you use it to develop a project?

LC: So the residency was organized by Ed Yim and Hanako Yamaguchi at WQXR. And they basically selected, they invited a few artists that year. There was Andrew Yee from Attacca Quartet. There was Aizuri Quartet. There was Emi Ferguson. There were, um, maybe other artists I'm failing to remember right now, but, um, basically a lot of artists who are doing a lot of wonderful contemporary work, um, socially conscious work, engaged work, committed work.

And for a year, we basically, um, lived in that space of community, um, communication about each other's work, discussing what we're doing, what we're thinking, uh, how to achieve it musically, technically. And so WQXR was very generous in the way that they supported us achieve our visions. Each of us had a vision that they wanted to see come to fruition and they really supported, uh, That they really supported this, how to, how to conceptualize and, and basically give it birth, give it birth, really make it come to life.

And that's in that situation. And so for me, it, uh, it materialized as an album that I performed at the green space in November, 2022, after a year of composing and reflecting and developing it. During that time, I also recorded a podcast, which was something I had never done before. But it was really cool.

I did a chapter with Fabian Almazan and David Lentz, who is a professor of botanical science. And I had, I had met during another residency at the Barton Oaks, because I was a fellow at the Barton Oaks for a semester. And I was the only musician and a whore of scientists. So that was very, uh, singular for me.

I had never been in that situation before. Um, and I learned a lot and I actually saw a lot of poetry in what they did and how, how, how, how important it is. To delve so deep into our past in order to understand our future. He is a professor, uh, um, mostly of, uh, Mayan, uh, uh, agriculture. Mm. And so he, he studies basically the DNA of the soil in, um, uh, Mayan and in territories.

And from that, he understands basically in the soil, the soil itself, the plants themselves. Explain to him, um. What they were, what, what basically explains it's a mirror of the civilization itself. What is contained in the soil today is the mirror of the civilization itself. So I thought it was so interesting, um, that how much we need to know about our past in order to be able to have answers for our future.

Um, so I recorded a podcast with him, um, and, uh, Fabian Who was a musician I really admire and who really also works a lot of, uh, on, uh, uh, music, um, in, uh, in correlation with Ecology, um, Bert Song. Um, I did another little series that I recorded, uh, that you can find on YouTube now that is all improvised and it's all basically a tribute to Ian.

It's all based on a material of Ian, uh, and Bird and mostly the birds song, uh, material. And yeah, and Radio Offload was the, was the culmination of that. Yeah. It was like a grant or a resident, a residency, a fellowship. Yes, it was. Yes, exactly. It was kind of like a fellowship where, you know, for a year you could dream and create things.

TR: And, uh, Fantastic. And, um, uh, Messiaen was married to this wonderful pianist who I've been listening to a lot lately. Do you know her? Yeah, Genevieve, I think, something, her name, I forgot her name. Yeah, I have to go look it up [Yvonne Loriod], but she's really just, oh my god, and you know, his, his very demanding.

Yeah. Um, so how did you meet Johnny Gandelsman and how did you arrive at his label?

LC: I met Johnny in the context of Silk Road. Um, and, uh, and then I had the, I mean, Johnny and I have a lot in common in our personal lives as well. Um, we have a lot of parallel threads. Um, I met him in the context of Silk Road. We have a lot of friends in common. And, um, and then he, um, He was at the time starting to, he had already released quite a, quite a bit of albums on, on, on, in a circle.

And at the time when I recorded in a rhyme, I, I basically, I was started to send it around and see who's going to support it. And I immediately thought of Johnny and when he said, yes, I'll take it on. I, I couldn't believe I was so happy. I was so excited and I love about Johnny that he's very involved in everything he does personally.

He does everything A to Z. And, uh, because it was my first experience in releasing something myself, um, he, it was great to see him work up close and, and, and, He, the way he does everything, the way his relationships are so real, so authentic with everybody he has, like, such as with you, for example. Um, he just, um, he breaches out personally to people and it's always very honest and very heartfelt.

And, uh, I love that. I love that. It's, uh, I have someone like him to represent my work. Like it's something that I could, it's so rare, you know, it's, it's unlike any other situation with another label where it's, uh, I'm sure they do great work as well. Yeah. To be represented by another artist. That's like the ultimate.

TR: Yeah. Presentation really. Yeah. I'm very grateful for that. So I know about Silk Road mostly through Yo Yo Ma, right? Tell me about, it's obviously bigger than the recordings that he does. So, um, uh, give me an idea of the scope of it and how you got involved with it. And, uh, what do, what do people need to know about Silk Road to help enlighten them about what that project's all about?

LC: Um, Silk Road is, um, is an ensemble that was founded by Yo Yo Ma, um, And invites, uh, a lot of musicians from all around the world. Um, Yo Yo Ma stepped, uh, stepped out a few years ago, like three years ago, maybe now, and right now it's being led by Rhiannon Giddens. Um, and so it's taken a bit of a different direction.

TR: I did not know this. Okay.

LC: Yes. So it's, it's taken a bit of a different direction. Um, it's, uh, it's, it's interesting. It's an interesting new direction. We're still seeing the, uh, we're still adapting to that new, um, curve, um, because it's definitely a learning curve for a lot of folks. People involved, especially the people who have been involved from the, from the very beginning of the ensemble.

Uh, but Rhiannon infuses a lot of fresh air and new ideas and, uh, has a very, really compelling vision for the ensemble. So it's exciting to, to be part of, of that and to be able to contribute to it.

And sometimes some, some of us are a bit more involved than others in some projects, which is also totally normal for the life of an ensemble of this size. Right. Some people are touring a project. Other people are doing something else. Um, yeah.

TR: And she's getting a lot of press right now because of Beyoncé. She plays on the Beyoncé.

LC: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

TR: Well, I have a special affinity for her and her music. Uh, cause I went to Oberlin too, so she's a big Oberlin person. So, um, yeah. Just terrific.

LC: And she's, uh, she really leads from the heart. She's really wonderful.

TR: How many strands, like, are there literal folk music strands that you're quoting, or are you just trying to evoke that folk milieu, or how much of it is directly from the folk style, and how much is, like, your interpretation of an existing folk style, and talk to me about those Lebanese roots.

LC: Um, so, uh, it's interesting that you hear some folk, uh, there's definitely folk influence just because by virtue of the music I write, I mean, I'm very influenced in folk music. Um, I very, um, I'm very, I have deep roots in folk music because of, because just of growing up in Lebanon and being exposed to that music on the daily.

Music is just such a, uh, yeah, immense part of daily life, even though I went to the conservatory as well and had a very Soviet style, uh, classical music upbringing. Yes, because we have, we had a lot of Eastern European teachers and Russian teachers, um, from the old Eastern, uh, old Soviet bloc as well. Uh, Armenian teachers, which was to get, um, to get formed this way in such a rigorous, uh, technical way, which benefited me a lot in my life musically gave me a lot. Um, I feel like I have, I'm standing on a very solid classical music foundation and everything I do, which is very useful, which is very helpful. Um, uh, but I'm also very embedded in folk music because it's just, a part of my life, a part of everything we do.

Um, I, I, as a result, I think, you know, I don't think of the album as. maybe folk music at all. In fact, um, it doesn't actually have the, the previous album did have a lot of folk quotation, direct quotation is actually, I tried to go to, to, to, to more abstraction. Um, and I've even replaced percussion by drum sets.

Um, I, we've added, uh, this. It's a microtonal piano. So I've been dabbling in microtonal, uh, harmony and exploring, um, the folk material and its verticality. Um, the folk, at least tunings, not the material itself, but it's very possible that, um, just like a person has an accent that they themselves cannot hear.

Then I, I revert to these idioms. Even when I'm not trying to sound folk, it's still a part of my language and inclination when I express myself. So maybe that's what you, what you, what you hear, which is really cool because I like this idea of inventing folk, you know, or, or, or, or playing for imaginary folk.

TR: Did you study in the West? Did you study? Tell me about that. Because in my music schools where I studied, there's a very firm divide between Western classical and folk, and they look down on folk. That's now it's less it's in my lifetime. It's grown less and less. There's less tension there, right? There's more acceptance.

LC: Yeah. Um, so, you know, in Lebanon, I we had this conservatory upbringing and then in the nearby countries in Syria and Iraq, it was kind of the same and in Palestine as well. Actually, it was the same thing that there were institutions that were founded originally by missionaries. And then their institution got nationalized and, uh, in the beginning it was mostly French and British teachers because we were under the mandate, British and French mandate.

Right. After the civil war and also after the independence from the French, um, those institutions got nationalized. At the same time, uh, the, um, the Soviet Union was. Collapsing, basically. And so a lot of musicians around those areas found themselves in need of jobs, in need of rebuilding their lives, their artistic lives.

And so a lot of them came to the Middle East. A lot of those teachers came to the Middle East. So we used to learn with them, uh, all the foundations of classical music. Um, and, uh, also a lot of theory and it was, uh, yes, it was quite rigorous, but at the same time in the same conservatory, you could, you could decide from a very early age when you got in, uh, either you do the classical division, the classical Western division, or the Arabic music division.

And even if you were at a classical music division, you still had to study Arabic music theory. So it's still very embedded in your program in a way or, or, or another, uh, and then later on, uh, and that's actually a turn of events that is quite singular in this situation. In 2006, there was another war, uh, the war of Israel on Lebanon in 2006, uh, prompted all of those teachers to leave.

All of the teachers, uh, who had been there for the past 20 years left during that war, um, because it happened during the summer. And usually what happened is they, they taught us all year and then they go to summer, they go back to Romania or, uh, Belarus or Ukraine, et cetera. And then they come back in the fall.

Um, that war happened all around the summer and many of them did not come back, including my teachers who had been teaching me for my violin teacher who had been teaching me for the past 12 years. So instead, we had another group of teachers arrive and among them, a teacher that actually, uh, I mean, I, I love my teacher.

I love the teacher. I love all of my teacher, but that teacher actually, he came at a point of my life where he effectively changed it. He just changed my perspective on music. He was, uh, Iraqi, um, and he, uh, he was the principal violin at, uh, the Iraqi opera house. And, uh, he had been trained at the Royal Academy in London, I think the Royal College, sorry, the Royal College of Music in London.

And he was also an extraordinary improviser of Arabic music. So he really made me embrace the links between things. He made me write my own cadenzas in Mozart concerti. Um, he really encouraged me to bridge that gap. gap between things, even though it was always, we always had both, but he made me understand the connection between things.

And it was at an age where I was starting to be interested in jazz and started to be interested in improvisation. So he really exposed me to creativity, even within the repertoire I was studying. And, uh, um, he, he passed away during COVID and he He remains to this day of a big figure for me. And then, um, later on, I studied the, I went to France to study at the conservatoire.

And then from there, I went to the Royal Academy of Music in London, but all around that, I still had always teachers and mentors of improvisational music, whether Ottoman court music or Hindustani music or Arabic, uh, music. So I always had a foot in both. in both, uh, worlds. So, so for me, I guess that those limitations, the limitations or those borders, I can't really, I, I, I don't see the, the use of them really in a way I, I really try to, even though the, the, the way that the industry is set up, which I understood much later is that it's actually so categorized in a way and you have to pick your camp in a way I never really quite understood why.

And I really feel that. It's, it's much more interesting to be at the, the, the margin of things, because that's where things, when, when things become hybrid, that's where the third road opens up or the fourth or fifth. And that's, that's where interesting things happen. Excellent. Excellent. Well, this has just been so wonderful to talk to you.

TR: Thank you so much for spending time with me. I have a lot more than I could use, but this is all really interesting.

LC: Best of luck to you. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Bye. Bye